We Can Hustle
We are riders, athletes, people working towards our own versions of success and we don't need to go through this journey alone. Shelby Olyschlager joins you weekly to bring a wide variety of guests and insight to what is possible; in and out of the arena. Tag along as we have conversations with everyday people with extraordinary stories, inspiration and knowledge; with the horse always in mind. Together, We Can Hustle!
We Can Hustle
54 | Mind, Body, Empowerment - The Josh Nichol Relational Horsemanship Method
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Josh Nichols sat down with Shelby to talk all about Relational Horsemanship and his thought provoking philosophy that truly makes so much sense! Share with us your biggest take away from this episode.
To learn all about Josh click here: https://linktr.ee/ahorsemanspursuit
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Hi guys! If you're wondering why my voice sounds a little different, it's because this is not Shelby. My name is Bella, and I'll be the second face and voice behind We Can Hustle Going Forward, which I am absolutely so excited about. Shelby and I actually met through the barrel racing world years ago when we were quite young and just recently connected on our values and beliefs that We can hustle really stands for. Over the past few years, I've kind of gone through the trenches with my own personal health, and it has really, really affected and shifted my lifestyle and mindset changes, impacted the way I view my riding, similar to Shelby. So I'm super excited to be able to collaborate and work with her and provide not only barrel racing and riding content, but also nutritional information and recipes, as I will be training to be a holistic health coach in January of 2023. Shelby and I will be also recording an in-depth episode together with our stories and beliefs and missions and goals moving forward with this platform that we will be releasing in the coming weeks. So stay tuned for that in the near future. And I really look forward to connecting with you all. So you can follow me on social media at Paint to Purpose Club, and I'd absolutely love to chat. Today's guest, Josh Nickel, helps horses and their riders build deeper connections through his clinics and his method called the relational horsemanship. So without further ado, let's get into the episode. Enjoy and make sure to subscribe to Week and Hustle for more cool interviews in the future.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Nice to meet you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, nice to meet you as well. So quite a deal trying to get our schedules together.
SPEAKER_01The life of horse people, I swear. It's just there is like no consistency. It's all over the place.
SPEAKER_02Especially in the summer. It's winter. I've might I'm a little bit more consistent, but yeah, summer. There's so many, so many things happening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no kidding. Where boats are you from?
SPEAKER_02Northern Alberta. It's North Edmonton.
SPEAKER_01Okay, cool. Yeah. Ontario or Canada. I like it. That was a I didn't even know that. Yeah. Awesome. That makes us even more exciting to be able to chat with you, fellow Canadian.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. And where exactly are you from?
SPEAKER_01I'm in Southern Ontario. Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_02Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's not quite as much of a horse world, and that's kind of the point of the podcast is to be able to connect with people because like I've gone to the state so much to try to, you know, learn and network from people, just because in my area, like there's not many, there's a lot of horse people, but it's at least for barrel racing, which is my thing, there really wasn't a lot around. So I'm like, I need to like try and expand and do something. So totally. So yeah, we can just get started. Thank you so much for joining us, Josh. Um, to get into it, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do for listeners that don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh I guess I can start a little bit at the beginning, but I have been chasing the idea of trying to figure out horses for forever, I guess. In my teens, I traveled lots, uh, spent most of my time riding with different people trying to learn. Um, in my early 20s, I started training, training for the public, uh, met lots of people in my travels, and then that kind of got me um helping folks and training. And then slowly that got me into teaching, as generally horses aren't usually the issue. It's generally the communication with the horse that's the struggle. So then training horses and then you know, handing the back of the people, there was this need to kind of bridge the gap between what the horse maybe could do and what the person was able to draw out of that horse. So then I started teaching, and I just seemed to have a knack for explaining things and helping people. And so then in the process, I didn't really intend to teach, but it was something that you know worked out pretty well. And then uh, but my focus has always been just trying to understand horses better. I kind of live off three pillars, you know. I try to uh I'm I'm more of a relational person, I like to build relationships and understand connections in the process of that, uh then understanding the athleticism, so the true function of horses, um, how their bodies were made to move, so honoring their mind, honoring their body, and then empowerments. And the empowerments, the like you know, being able to live, live inside of the challenges of life and make our life bigger, our world bigger, not smaller. Um, and be able to go out there and challenge and you know, kind of take those things or get after those things we want to do. Um, I feel like people are inspired by relationship and they desire those relationships, but the risk is to make your world small. But we're always inspired by those brave people that are out there doing cool things. You know, we all love that story and love connecting to those people. So to me, it's it's kind of this awesome balance of being able to honor the relational side of a horse, of how what they need and how they connect, honor their bodies, and then and then just go out there and you know make our world bigger. And uh that's sometimes the the the messier side, you know, where we we learn by our mistakes and sometimes our horses struggle, and but that's really where we expand and develop. So it's kind of the ground where where the deepest learning happens. Uh, you know, one of my favorite poems is The Man in the Arena, you know, that the whole idea about it's not necessarily the critic that counts, but being in the arena. And I guess in this comment, it's more about being in there and doing the things and and learning as you go. And uh yeah, so then that's kind of where I'm at now. You know, I just doing my own thing. Uh my kids are growing up now and and uh pretty heavy into the horses themselves and just following along and and uh with them building my own horses, teaching clinics, training, and uh yeah, just trying to enjoy it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that. And I love just like those lessons that you learned from working with these horses. They teach us so much more than just working with a horse, getting them to do this certain thing. It's more of the reason behind it. And you said about these pillars, you know, building those relationships and those connections. So I want to go into that. Tell us a little bit about your own philosophy with training horses and what your experience has really taught you that a lot of people have been missing.
SPEAKER_02Uh I let it kind of break down kind of philosophically at first. And, you know, there's a difference between what I call relational horsemanship. That's kind of my thing. It's like, what does it mean to be in relationship with stuff, whether it's a bit, um, the legade, the reins, the horse, you know, what does it mean to be in relationship with those things instead of uh kind of fighting against them? So relational horsemanship generally says that it that if a horse is struggling, there's an unmet need. Something, something they need from that is not being met, so then they're gonna struggle. Horses do not do things for the same reasons as people, you know. We have emotional interpretations, we have ways we dive into things that that we can twist and and look into it in a more negative way, where horses are just trying to get by, like they they genuinely are just trying to get by. And if they don't, if they don't feel safe, if they don't feel like their needs are being met, then they struggle. And their struggles are very pure. They're gonna they're gonna really bite into struggling, where you and I will play a lot more games, we'll try to hold it together, we'll be composed where a horse just rawly expresses how they feel. And that's what makes it easier for us to get emotional because they're so pure in it. It's like I'm really struggling right now, and I'm just gonna put it up there for everybody to see. So relationship just says that if the horse is struggling, there's an unmet need. And now it's kind of up to me to figure out how to meet that need because they didn't they didn't come and knock on my door and say you want to go do stuff. You know, I went and got them, I'm bringing them into this craziness, not necessarily them pulling me into it. So it's kind of on us to lead that. And that to me is what leadership is is leadership is about being an example of things, not necessarily making someone do a thing. Um, and then I kind of balance that with what we call reactive or more of an emotional interpretation to horsemanship, which then says if the horse is doing something, they're trying to be bad or disrespectful. And the problem with that perspective in my mind is that it actually motivates emotional um uh pressure. I kind of feel justified now to get in there and discipline my horse with uh, you know, this emotion of them trying to be bad, and I need to discipline that and I need to deal with it. And that generally makes any relationship muddy when we try to go into it with that perspective. And the horses can feel us so much. So when we're in that state of mind, we're pretty unclear. Generally, we're not very pure in our release points, and then the horse starts to anticipate, especially from the empowerment perspective, they start to struggle at the climax of things when they feel like something big is coming, then they get even worried because now they're worried about the thing in life, but they're also worried about us, they don't know how we're gonna handle it. So, yeah, relational horses, just this idea that I'm I'm I'm trying to take care of my horses, that doesn't mean I do it all the time, like I fail all the time because I keep pushing myself. And then when we get pent up or when we get upset, well, that's a time for a self-check, not necessarily a horse check. You know, when I hit my own ceiling, and that's a little bit of the other side of relational horses, it's kind of like taking care of first things first, like you got to take care of yourself first and the way you look at it. And if something charges you up, uh, you know, it's on me not to take that out on you or to take it out on my horse. Now, you know, whatever, we're gonna fail, and sometimes we do it, but that should be in our own personal debrief and opportunity to grow and take responsibility for self. Um, and then on the empowerment side, you know, we also want our horses to be able to carry a responsibility for themselves. You know, there's a lot of things when we're asking horses to do things fast or quick, where where the horse has to be taught to be able to fill in and carry their own feet and actually meet us in the middle in the end. Um, that just my perspective on that. But as but that's with any anything where the horses have to use their body in a in a more demanding way, we can't we're not quick enough to be there with them in the speed that they can react and respond. So we want that working for us. Um, yeah, so that's the relational side. And what it does, I find, is it just takes the emotion out of it, takes the negative emotion out of it and allows it to be a bit of a more pure relationship where you can kind of recognize I still doesn't mean that when the horse is freaking out or the horse is struggling, that doesn't frustrate us. I think every human is going to get bothered by those kind of things, but it just takes the negativity out of the interpretation, and then that leads you. That's the the cool part I think about it is that what happens after that is that when the horse releases to you, they release all the negative muscles and they start activating the positive muscles. So then that's this that's where the athleticism comes in. So a horse's body is really cool because it's built to not be able to work unless it's calm, unless it's unless it's okay. And I, you know, I say calm, but that doesn't mean asleep. You know, calm can be very bright and very ready, but not necessarily fearful. So there's muscles that charge in a horse when they're fearful, they'll put them on their forehand and kick their hindquarters out and get them inverted. Um, but when a horse is calm and they feel like they're okay and they can trust you, they'll shut, they'll shut the negative muscles off and they can turn the positive muscles on. So I think it's pretty cool. You know, I generally compare it to anything where it's like you got to earn the mind to get the body, and that's just good relationship. You don't just get to take the body. So anything that's body first is somewhat of a submissive approach where we're kind of making the horse give in. The relational side is you you earn it and then they they show up. So there's still moments when a horse can't think and you got to help them body first, like you know, chill them out or settle them down. But generally that would mean we overloaded the circuitry. So we'd have to also then do a self-check on being able to support them relationally again to build that bridge. Um, and then that's the fun part. So then the athletic side is a knowledge of how the horse's body needs to move so that they can use themselves powerfully. You know, I want them, I want them to sit deep and carry themselves and carry us. And that's the difference between a smooth moving horse now and uh a rough, rigid horse, but also an athletic horse. That they start learning how to use their body in a way where you're not having to be on them all the time to do things, they kind of develop it. So I talk a lot about in athleticism the difference between self-carriage and held frame. Self-carriage is, you know, me kind of making everything happen and uh uh excuse me, held frame is making it happen, and self-carriage means they know. And the best you see that is with speed. So you add a little haste, you add a little haste to it, you're gonna know real quick if your horse knows how to use their body or if they need you to be there. Um, and it doesn't matter what what event we're doing, you're gonna see that show up. So um yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Wow, there's so much there to unpack, so many good takeaways. And just the idea of you know, like the leadership aspect, we're being the example. And I think that applies, like you said, with every single relationship, and especially with horses, and kind of you said, like a self-check. And I think that's a huge problem. I see a lot of the horse isn't doing the thing we want. Meanwhile, it's kind of our issue, like it's something that we need to be the leader and try and fix and show up in that way. It also brings me to the point that you mentioned just of the relationship with our tools and you saying that them being softer and relaxed to activate the proper muscles and not be in like that tense softening to our aid instead of being bracing. And I think when we get that softness, they're gonna, like you said, with their body, they're gonna be putting those positive muscles on that we need. So, can you talk a little bit about that of how you would use these tools to develop like that softness and just to develop that mind body where they are actually working efficiently for the things that we want them to do?
SPEAKER_02Cool. Yeah, it kind of blends off of the the idea of relational horseship being meeting a horse's needs. I talk about three prior needs, uh mind, space, and pressure. Um, space is the way a horse feels you. A lot of times people look at space as something a horse is disrespecting you with. But uh humans generally live uh very guarded. We don't want anybody to judge us, we don't really want to be out there and be vulnerable because we don't know what people think. Pack that on with experience and bad experiences and trauma, and we can get pretty welled up. Um, well, now the horse can't feel you, so then they got to get closer to you to start sensing you, and then we're trying to kick them out of the way. So it's like the horse is just trying to connect with you, but we're calling that disrespect. So that's a that's a challenge for horses because they just want to connect and understand. But it's like, you know, we're we've got this big wall up, so they can't do it, and then we keep kicking them away, which creates tension and anxiety. So initially, in our work, we need to show up. You need to let the horse feel you. There has to be a lot of clarity around um our own personal growth where we can feel confident enough to just be present and show up in the space, and that leads the horse to the same. We've got to get to a place where they can feel that. So that's the space side of it. And then as we're talking about the AIDS, um, this is mine impressure. So a lot of times when we pick up the rain, we're looking for the body to turn. And the first thing I'm doing is that I want when I touch the rain, I want to see the thought change. Because when so horses, horses' feet are always trying to go where they're where their mind is. Uh, we see that with herdbound horses or you know, drawn to the gate or whatever. Um, but when you touch the rain, if you can't direct the thought, then you can't direct the pull because the thought directs the pull and the ball directs the flow of the body, and that's the engagement of the hindquarters. So being able to blend the aids into understanding the needs is becomes crucial to straightness and power because you can't get the power line working if you can't direct the mind. If you're fighting the mind, the body's trying to go where the brain is. So now you have a real crooked horse, it's kind of like their brain is pulling their body this way, and my brain is pulling their body that way, and you have this crookedness and tension. So a lot of tension I see in horses has nothing to do with physicality, can't be fixed with therapy because it's actually the mind continuing to do it. So you can try and fix it therapeutically, and it'll seem to work for a moment. But as soon as the brain you start fighting two brains over a body again, you start losing the connection. So meeting the need of defining the aids initially starts with when you touch your rain, can you observe your horse's thought change? And so I'm talking to their brain first, not their body. And that starts to develop the connectivity between the mind and the body. And then the last one is pressure. So obviously, I'm I'm pretty compacting these pretty, pretty, pretty small. You know, you can start with lots of little groundwork exercises, but just generally, generally speaking. Um, and the last one's pressure, where I see most horses come to us. Well, all horses come to us with a predatorial pressure understanding, which means they're going to run away from pressure. And sometimes we'll use that. So we'll use that negative instinct to try to get the things we want. Well, now we have a horse that responds to us, but they're responding in some state of anxiety or fear, which creates tension. So in the long term, that's actually harming us because now we have a horse that's inverted and bracing against pressure. We're responding in their same predatorial instincts. They're actually responding in a negative. So the the thing I want to do after that is I want, as I use any pressure, I want, I'm going to use pressure to number one draw the thought, or number two, create softness, not motion, not move. Movement is a part of it, but you need to be able to feel a horse release to a thing. And I find this is where people struggle and they think they can't feel, but it's mostly because they're not focusing on the things that base feel on. They focus on movement, they focus on obedience, but the horse is inside doing this all the time, and it kind of locks you away. So when your horse does that and we're doing this, there's no joining or union of energies. So then what I'll, you know, I'll just something as simple as like the two most simple exercises that I give to people is first you have to be able to touch your lead rope and feel the tension in a horse and sense the relaxation. You need to sense and know that. Then if you apply pressure, it could be anything, a flag, whatever, could be your coat, could be just raising your hand. You you create a pressure and then you just wait there until the horse softens. So they learn that the pressure can go away when they soften instead of when they move and hold tension. So you start developing what I call relational pressure, which is a little bit more what happens in the herd. They'll move each other, but they're softening to each other because there's a desire to connect. So there's a difference between relational pressure and predatorial pressure. And then I'll also do that with my leg aids. You know, I'll put a leg on and I'll apply that pressure. I want to see response, but I also want to feel them release and soften. So you're now blending the needs into the AIDS. And then what happens is as a horse learns to soften all the way through, now they can activate their hindquarters, and your AIDS are now adding to a relational athleticism versus an obedient submissiveness. And see that that that difference is to me monumental because it's the difference of interpretation. How you interpret me sets the tone for our conversation. You know, the mind is so powerful. So if the horse sets a tone of anxiety or worry, then their body's work in that state all the time. And so then time doesn't fix that. You know, it's like that that's a set tone every time the horse interprets, then they're tense. Now I'm doing everything with tension. So the high point of athleticism to me is then is changing our interpretation so that we can see the horse in a different way, and then letting the meeting of the needs be the blending in the definitions so that the horse sees every time I touch my rein, it's kind of meeting their need. Every time I put my leg on, they're thinking about releasing. You see, and now bend and flexions and relaxations and proper movements become secondary. They're just overflows of that. They just start to do that. But again, I don't see that as different. You know, if you if you feel safe and confident around somebody, it's not hard to show up and be present. And so I feel the same. I like to think about universal truths. I think that when we hit universal truths, it feels good and it can connect to anything, whether it's our horses or people or just life in general. That's kind of like the spider web of the way the world was made. That's kind of another conversation, but it's so true, though.
SPEAKER_01Like it's so true. And just again, like our thoughts, horses' thoughts, I think we kind of mirror each other in that way. So I'm curious, you just mentioned, you know, like let's say herdbound horses or just getting horses to connect that mind-body. If that's one of our main foundational pieces that we need, what are some of the ways, like if you get someone in or a horse that really is disconnected and they've been trained that way, what are some of the things that you'll do to help the horse and the owner of the horse to start kind of bridging that gap?
SPEAKER_02Well, generally, people got to slow it down a little bit and you got to start recognizing. I talked about green, yellow, and red light. Uh, green is where your horse feels safe. Um, they're gonna feel good there, they'll relax, but they're not necessarily showing you their truth or in a growth state. Um, red is you're you're you're overdoing it. The horse isn't even online. So just biologically, uh, as soon as anybody's in a sympathetic state, there's there's no there's no learning. Your brain is off, it's biology. All the blood flows from your organs and your brains, your brain, excuse me, and goes to your limbs and gets ready to fight, flee or fight. So as soon as your horse deregulated this becomes dysregulated, um, it's our job to bring them back into yellow or back to green. Um, so in the very beginning, you got to figure out where your thresholds are. And whether you like them or not, you got to figure out where they are. Most people just don't like them, they don't want to go back to where they need to be. But then when it's right, then you got to start testing up until you can get out of the woods, so to speak. So I generally think that the best training is done in the yellow light. Um, and our high learnings are in the red light. You know, we've all been there where it's like, dang, I knew that wasn't gonna, you know, I knew something was off, and then we end up getting piled or whatever. Um, but in the yellow, you'll feel your horse's tension, but their brain's still online. And it's in there. Um, I just think generally a person's got to recognize that directing your horse's mind is the most powerful tool that you have because when the mind and body are back together, the horse will become calm. But the farther you separate the mind and body, The more anxiety is, uh, the more anxiety will be in the body. So now you're dealing with an offline brain and anxiety. Well, good luck. You know, that's there's not a cure, there's not a cure for that moment. You just have to lessen the intensity, and then inside that yellow, you know, if you is start watching the brain, watch what they're thinking about. And if you add a question, can you see when their thought changes? And as soon as their thought starts to come back, you'll start seeing they they relax. You know, that's that's the thing. So, number one, you got to show up so that they can feel your calmness. You can't be hiding behind your walls, nervous of what's going on, because then when your horse looks at you, what do they see? All they see is that you're scared too. So then that's not actually maybe you don't even want your horse to look at you in that moment, but then you so the best of your ability, you got to be calm, you got to be in the space, you got to let the horse feel what you're doing, that you're relaxed in those environments, and then or to the best of your ability, doing your best and then draw their thought to you. So it's not just getting them to focus on you, it's getting them to focus on something that will add value to them. Horses are kind of selfish in this moment, you know, they want they're when they're nervous, they're trying to figure out what's gonna add value to them. So you gotta be able to add value to them, and that always leads me to the question oh man, how do I do when I'm in spots? You know, am I able to take my body and brain in other places and not freak out? You know, when when things happen in my head, how do I deal? How do I deal? Because I think that all creatures feel frequency. It's like on one hand, you'll feel some people you totally resonate with, and other people you don't. Um, sometimes something will happen and it just messes with you, it can mess with your system, it, you know, it can make you feel sick, it can, you know, this is the disease of the body, so to speak, is primarily, you know, how do we operate? Um, so that's the other side of this. Like I want my horses to feel like when you know, I'm practicing as well, my own internal game, so that when uh things are happening, I'm an example to them. So yeah, it's just trying to get into that yellow light and then and then focus on the eye, focus on their mind, whether that be on a circle that you can just draw their attention, or whether it be leading them away from their paddock, but see where that spot is and start helping the horse see that you recognize that you are helping them with what they were saw as important instead of just what I see as important.
SPEAKER_01Right. So you you mentioned value, like you want to add value to them. Can you give us a bit of an example of what that would be?
SPEAKER_02The horses they just want to feel okay. So value to the horse means that they feel safe, that's a value added to them, and that their body is functioning as it should. So a lot of times the things we do with our horses, um, especially as we start pushing things when we start asking for more, it's very easy to be taking the value away from the horse, but taking what we want at their expense. And I know a lot of times people are, you know, therapeute, you know, adding therapy and minerals and vitamins, and you know, we're trying to have the best bit and this. But the key is to the horse, the value is how their bodies feel when they're working. So to me, that's that's the primary. And on top of that, so if you have a if you have a musculature and a physiology that's working well, you you feel very good, you feel good. And on top of that, I want to add all the good stuff, you know, all the others. But the way a horse's body works and moves to me is the primary. Because if there's certain muscles spiring, and we know it, if you took, you know, you started to walk around and you had your back hollowed, you know, and you're walking around like that for 10 minutes, you're gonna feel sore. So, you know, being able to get them to use their bodies right is a super value add to the relationship. And then slowly what happens is the horse starts to feel powerful because they're moving in a powerful position instead of a weak posture. Inversion primarily facilitates anxiety because that's their alert state, their anxious, kind of worried state. And that often is what jacks a horse up in a negative way. Again, anytime we're asking them anything demanding, it's we're playing on the edge of taking energy away from fear and turning it into empowerment. That's the game. I want my horse to be able to be totally ready, but all of that energy being ready for confidence and empowerment, not fear. That's that's what we're looking, you know, you know. So you can take them from nothing to full, and that they would use themselves well in the thing we're gonna do. Um, so yeah, value add, it's first off how they feel, secondly, how they move. That would be the primary of the primary elements for me.
SPEAKER_01That makes so much sense. And just you saying that I have all these thoughts of barrel racers and you know, training horses, and just you said it's that balance of we have it. And then when you start to demand a little bit more, then that's when maybe it might fall apart, but maybe we're not seeing the signs. And then all of a sudden, our horse is going through a barrel pattern with their back hollowed, and then now we have kissing spine. That's super common in our industry, and it's like, why is this becoming a thing? And I think you just really touched on all of those things that are gonna affect our horses physically and also mentally. And I mean, like you said, it all goes together. Yeah, I think that's super important, just realizing that. And I'm thinking back in my head, working my three-year-old, I definitely, you know, I'm trying to ask for a little bit more, more speed. Body kind of fell apart. And it's kind of thinking, you know, like what you just said, like why? And maybe having to backtrack, even though you said it's at their expense. Like we have to backtrack and not take it out on them and think, oh, they're not doing it this way, blah, blah, blah. And you kind of like force it, or we really, I think this is super key for people to know to sometimes you do have to slow down and get that back, get that mind body where they're relaxed, they're focused, they're physically comfortable, like you said, that value. And then we can progress and move forward. So I think that is such a good takeaway. One thing I do want to talk about is a little bit, you said just about like testing up and maybe you know, experiencing these failures or experience them, experiencing them in like a good way that we are kind of testing. So, can you talk a little bit about what that is for you?
SPEAKER_02Well, we're do we we generally are ourselves in a lot of ways. We've got a couple horses. Well, my daughter's running the horse. Now she my daughter competes in high school rodeo, and we've got a horse, she's uh her main barrel horse is, you know, that's a thing we're always going back and forth on, you know, running, how does he use himself, and then is he able to stay in a connected, retained ability, um, how he handles himself at the gate, you know, all of the pieces that can create these high tension points, and then trying to kind of help them through that by the the biggest thing to me is is that so from that perspective, when you apply more pressure in a in a proactive way, so I think a lot of times we're trying to keep everything quiet and we're trying to like you know speed things up, but we're not necessarily applying pressures to them. To me, how they are when we apply pressure, like on purpose. If I put more leg on, if I ask for more, you know, do what do they do? Like, do they understand? Because I look at so then you say, okay, what is the gates? The gates like for some horses out of 10, the gates like 90 because you're going from zero to 100. So then they start all tense and inverted. Well, then, okay, so how about if I start to apply more leg or I use a little bit more pressure? If I use more pressure, do they notice soft? So am I building this idea that pressure actually means soft and pressure doesn't just mean speed? And I would say, so I look at um speed is more energy, pressure is more release. You want a horse to release the pressure, but a lot of times when we're applying pressure, we're actually getting tension, and that that's a that's a problematic philosophical base. That's a that's a problem at the base. That's not that's not so then what happens is slowly, all you're doing is you're just chasing tension. So then the horse is now anxious and inverted. So that's generally where things break down as you add speed because you're you're you hit your ceiling where they understood how to release. So then we're playing with applying pressure on purpose and demonstrating release. So that could be like I have a couple different things. So we have a mechanical cow, we have the flag, we we're cattle, you know, we're trying to find ways to up the ante. We'll actually play with exercises on the pattern for him with barrels. I think there's lots of little things, but then but you have to actually up the pressure on purpose and see where that threshold is, and then in competition, you're gonna see it, and that's just that's how it is. Instead of looking at competition as like pass fail, you look at competition as like ah, observable knowledge of where then the pressure makes them pop, so to speak. And then you got to make adjustments quick so you don't build a pattern. And that's what I generally see is people keep trying to push to the same, the same, the same, and the horse just repeats philosophical. They don't necessarily care about the gate, they see the banner, they see the pressure, they see the anticipation. And for us, we just see the three barrels or whatever it might be. So, anyways, trying to look at it from the horse's perspective, and then the other one, shoot, man, we're in that season right now, like we're hardcore into branding season. So you have you have horses that are coming into different pressure situations, that you know, um, the branding pen can be a pretty hot space, and then you know the horses have to deal with those pressures, so you're just learning. And I I learn all the time from failures because well, I don't really even call it failure anymore. Um, but it's because how how the heck do you know until you try it, if it's gonna work or not? So how is it failure if you didn't even really know? So to me, it's like adjustments, you know, it's one of my favorite comments. It's like, oh, now I know, you know, instead of failure, then now it's now you have a reference point. So that doesn't mean I don't get frustrated and I wish that that horse would have done better, but but you need to test it to know. So I look at that empowerment phase of like, you know, okay, I got I gotta, I gotta now you have a reference point of what you're working for and what you're working to. And um, yeah, I just I just love living in that space more and more. I don't know if it's age or if it's just development, growth in myself, but I like spending more time in that that that area, that that kind of like gray zone of the unknowns, because that's where you grow. You expand there. You can regroup in green, then you got to push back to yellow and you learn by red, you know, and that's the deal. So um uh it's just not passfail, it's not succeed or lose, it's just a constant development of unknowns become knowns, and then you adjust and you come home and you got to keep upping the ante. There has to be enough green that they they really learn, but then you got to be pushing into the yellow a lot more often. Uh, that's my deal. I like we're pushing to the yellow a lot more often to um and then figuring out what each horse's need is, right? Like some horses are mind horses, they are so herdbound, they're so connected, they need to see everything. Other horses are space horses, you know, they really need to feel you show up. And if they're not, they're they seem pushy, but they're just looking for clarity. And they have pressure horses, those are spooky ones, super sensitive, worried about stuff. If you don't clarify pressure for them, they're not gonna work for you. They're gonna react when it when it comes down to it, they're gonna react to the pressures around them, they're not gonna listen to you. I'm just being blunt, but that's just generally what's gonna happen. They're gonna spook versus go around the barrel, they're gonna look at the banners instead of softening and think. So, those horses, you need they need to know how to control pressure. It's not about dulling or desensitizing. I think that's a big deal. Horses do not need to lack sensitivity. I've never ridden a bridal horse that lacks sensitivity. They need to be sensitive, but they need to understand how to control pressure in a thoughtful way. And if they can, they can control pressure, then they don't need to be dull to it. They don't need to be desensitized, they just need to understand. Um, yeah, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Makes so much sense. And I do I just want to backtrack to what you said. It is super liberating to be in that space of failure isn't a failure because you're gonna take something from it and be able to grow and evolve. And that's kind of the main purpose of all of this that we're living on this earth to do, right? We're here to evolve. So we're gonna take these things. And I like what you said that it's not really a failure, anyways, because you don't actually know how it's gonna work out anyways. So it's it's you just go with it and whatever happens happens. You're gonna take what you can and you're gonna be able to live tomorrow to change, change what you feel like you have to change and kind of go from there. Um, since your daughter's in barrel racing, this kind of is curious for me, but what are some of the things that you do intentionally with her barrel horse to help with, let's say, gate issues, or you know, you take them somewhere new, new arena, there's things to look at. What are some of the things that you guide your daughter through to help her?
SPEAKER_02Uh mindfulness is number one, you know. Um, well, so she ropes as well, and her head horse is very sensitive, very well schooled. And she in the beginning was so was just too busy, too unsure, too worried. And then he was responding to all her little energies. So getting to a place where she could become still, I think people don't prioritize enough mindfulness. Like, I don't care what it is, if you meditate, if you sing songs, if you know you got to know how to control your own energy because if you don't, the creatures around you are gonna be responding to you. So, and then okay, you put performance that. Well, now everything goes through the roof, it just amplifies. So, mindfulness is a big game for me. Teaching her to be still and be centered so she's not taking her stuff out on the horse and the horse is not having to interpret the world through that muddy lens, they're able to gain value by their by their calmness. Um, second thing is don't build patterns, don't build patterns. If your horse is struggling at the gate, have another horse stand there, have somebody walk you in and work on yourself so you don't have to work on yourself and your horse at the same time. Like, do what you can to break the cycle because horses pattern really fast. They start making boxes and associations. So it doesn't mean you just have to get out of the game because your horse is struggling. If you can find a way to break it down so you can keep working at it. Um, and then the other thing is that I generally encourage my daughter not to just go from halt to run. Most of the times it can be walk, trot, lope, run, you know, so you're not you're not just going from because a lot of times that's the anticipation. It's like uh boom and you're off. Um, there are very few rings. Well, in our world, there are very few rings where you have to you have to leave at zero to mock 10. Um, most of the time, you can you can let that be fluid. So, number one, if you can break it down to stay calm, and then your signals are very clear, and you want to then break that down in your practice, making sure you're able to be very clear with your signals so you're very systematic. Um, again, that's thinking about the connection between you and your horse and not necessarily the job. Like I've recognized, you know, I haven't trained, like I don't train barrel horses, I train horses to think and use their bodies, and then we just have lots of stuff we get them to do that with. Um, but it doesn't take long for horses to learn the pattern. But learning the pattern is the easy part. It's how they use themselves, how they think that's the challenge and keeping them online. So, yeah, I just say like find a way to meet their needs, make sure that you're testing up and being proactive at home, you're pushing the edges a little bit more and seeing how they handle that, and then making sure that in competition you're attentive to yourself. So then I also encourage people, like I encourage her all the time to be more to be mindful of her thinking and her energy in in those stressful times when things come up in life, you know, that you're thinking about how you handle it again, so you can be an example. Um and then midtime game, like like especially when we're at a rodeo or whatever, that she she takes time to check in with herself so that she's you know, before there's we kind of have a sequence to a race um or any event. High school road is hard because you have four different events in the day, so it's pretty busy. Um, but at a barrel race, it's a little bit a little bit more straightforward for the process and it's very you know systematic. She goes into her own zone, she knows what she needs to do. She actually listens to music in her warm-up, she does her own thing, her own way, and she's not um talking and visiting. That's what she needs to do. Some people need to do that, they need to loosen up by conversing and communicating. For her, she's got to drop into that zone. And then when she's done her race, then she turns it off and goes into visiting and having fun. So it's just a matter of her knowing what she needs to do to like get her head in a game so she can be still. And then she actually uh some races you can do this where you can actually spend more time by the gate, not in the way, obviously, but kind of by the gate, letting the horses go in and out. And at first, if that gets a horse going, but get to where you can feel how you feel when they're going in and out, and then start to replicate that feeling as you prepare to run yourself. And I just generally encourage people to not just go from zero to full. Because even if that like zero to full is like one stride to full, even if you took three strides to get to full, that really helps a horse because you're breaking it down a little bit so they don't have to um have that huge anticipation.
SPEAKER_01This yeah, this makes so much sense. And just even thinking how that affects horses when they go from zero to a hundred, then people have the reason, oh, my horse blows by the first barrel, or this happens. You're not even they're not even checked in before you're been doing your runs. So it's kind of what do you expect is gonna happen. I also like what you said of just like connection with you and the horse, not necessarily the job that you're gonna go do. Like you said, they learn three barrels pretty fast. Like it's true, it's not rocket science to turn three barrels with the horse. We make it super complicated. But I just like that idea for ourselves to think of it as let's just work on our relationship, what we have to do. And I always say that where it's like focus on your job, let the horse focus on its job. And if you can just show up and like, like it all goes back to that leadership role of ourselves. And it's like if we can show up as that leader for work on what we have to do, then our horse will follow suit because we train all we train all day at home to do this thing. So it's like let them do their job, let us do our job, and just really, you know, make that, like you said, those connections and make it really clear. And yeah, there's so many good takeaways. One thing I do want to ask, um, always really interested to know if there's like one big piece of advice or one really big life lesson or a thing that you learned, what would that be that you could share with us?
SPEAKER_02Resources?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or in general, just anything. One big takeaway, one big thing that you want us all to know.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's a big one.
SPEAKER_01Um sorry if I threw you off guard, but it's always interesting. A big lesson. A big lesson.
SPEAKER_02I'm just trying to uh honor the question. I just yeah, I don't want to just throw something out there, but I mean if you have two, if you have two big lessons, I guess. You know what? Honestly, um it's kind of a couple pieces, but uh I think it would be, you know, people get so caught up in the achievement that they want. Um, and I feel like, man, you've got to enjoy the journey as as cliche as that is, you know, the it's the process of developing a horse, it's the process of life that the joy is. And because I, you know, you have different things where you achieve the thing you were trying to achieve, but you built a poor philosophy around needing that thing, and then all of a sudden you've got that. Now you need the next thing and you're you're not in it. You're in a state of tension all the time because you need a thing rather than just be able to find peace within yourself and enjoy every day and be driven, but enjoy the process, you know. And that's that to me is it's everything because training anything, whether it's dogs or horses, um, they're just feeling of you all the time. And if you're always in that state of tension because you're not quite happy enough, and I think a lot of people that train are need a little bit of a perfectionist energy because we always want things to be a bit better, but man, that can that can really hit us because you're you're just tense all the time. You're in a state of tension. And we're asking our horses not to be tense, but we're missing it, we're missing it. So for me, uh, you know, I think that bit about you know, just enjoy the process and be really happy with the small successes, recognizing that I've never observed life to be one big success. You have moments when big things happen, but they're all a product of just small things done well. Um, and but not just done well, but done peacefully, like that you're inside that you're happy, that you're you feel good in life, you know, that you're enjoying the process. My wife has a saying, it's like that the days are long, but the years are short. And we've experienced that, you know, my daughter's 15 now, you know, it feels like just yesterday we just met, you know, it feels like not even that long ago. I was traveling around training horses with other people, and now we're where we are, and it's just crazy. So, if anything, you know, I would say that it's like enjoy the process with your horse and let that happen. Because when we we can all probably recognize, especially the young horse, it's like, oh yeah, this is great, and we're loose and cool because the expectations are low, and then things start happening really well, and then we start getting to the point where we're like, okay, now things got to start happening, and now we put this weird expectation on the horse, and everything starts falling apart. So, you know, being able to just be really mindful of the process and let things come as they go, move through the zones as you need, back to green when you need, you know, into yellow, learn from red, but have fun with it. You know, life's we're not given uh any indication that we'll even be here tomorrow, you know. And I just I just feel that I feel that righteously lately in my life of just richly being in every moment and um enjoying my horses for a while. I was buying horses, you know, you buy a bunch of good horses and and then you build them and sell them, and or you know, whatever. I try to sell horses to my students so that it it it has a they have some indication of how the horse was schooled. And it came, you know, you start really connecting this horse, but man, you don't even know if you're gonna be with that horse tomorrow. And it really hit me while I was doing that, you know, it started to you certainly start appreciating each day you get with a cool horse instead of anticipating uh that they're just gonna be around all the time and or whatever. Um, yeah, kind of changes your views, and then training inside that parameter, but not leaving out empowerment of trying to trying to get where we want to go, you know, have those goals, but enjoy it.
SPEAKER_01I love that so much. And I just it I it's so relatable and it's so cool, all these lessons we learn just from horses and how it applies to our lives in such greater ways. And I'm so thankful for for you sharing it and also just in general, like you said, being grateful for the horse is that we have it right now and enjoying that moment. And I do want to talk a little bit just in my own experience with the Whole um making accomplishments and that being your goal. It was my biggest failure in life. Like I struggled for years because you set it just that tension of having to achieve it. And then I realized that maybe I'm not as competitive as I thought I was, or it wasn't really that competitiveness that I needed to actually achieve the thing because thinking of I need this was the reason why I wasn't getting it. And just kind of what you said really ties that together of being so attached to that thing, like we need it, we need it. And that's when things fall apart. Where if you do, like you said, enjoy that process, enjoy just doing it because you love it. And those results will be the natural byproduct, I think, of it. So it's a really interesting balance of my phrase that I remember reading once, where it's like you water the dream, but you just let it be. Like you water every day, you you prepare in the arena, you can pray with your horses yourself, you read, you meditate, all these things. But then for the actual result, you just have to let it be. You have to be okay with it. Just let it happen. Let it and and come at its own time, I think is important. And that's one thing that I learned even for barrel racing. I anticipate the second barrel, like in a smaller sense, just that little anticipation in life of anticipating getting there, where it's like, I just need to allow my horse to get to her spot and just let that happen and trust that it's gonna happen. And you know, that was like one little small thing, but it's so much bigger. Like you can apply that in so many ways. So I think it's so powerful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because to me it's it's what your mind does with it in that moment. So when you're in when you're there to grow and enjoy the process and you're doing the work, when the horse struggles, you're in a different mind to help them. But when it now turns into you needing to get a thing, when you feel the horse do that and need your support, you're actually a little bit you're a little bit frustrated, right? So now they feel when they struggle that you're frustrated. And we know how that is the difference between having that friend or that person or mentor that when you struggle, they're they're able to get there with you and help you, versus, you know, you know, if you struggle, that there's a person that's gonna be frustrated with you, or they're gonna be upset with you, or you're an inconvenience to them, you know, that that's like, oh man, that just now you aren't even allowed to struggle. And then it creates that right in itself, that knowing that's there creates tension in you. That's gonna make the problem even bigger because then I know when I struggle, it's a problem. So that that's the philosophical struggle I see when people start to take what they want over just being in the moment and why, you know, water the dream and it happens because because when you just take that philosophy and you live by that life philosophy, things just happen because you're actually building a better relationship. You know, when you know you can be safe there and that that person's gonna help you, there's you just keep growing because you keep elevating. But when you know that it's gonna hit that tension point, all of a sudden you're stuck now because you're worried about the react. You you're worried about what's gonna happen. And oh, that's just so reflective. You know, when you get into that empowerment stage and a horse starts to struggle, and it's like, okay, why are they struggling? You know, what what is am I supporting their growth or are they partly worried about my reaction?
SPEAKER_01You know, it's so crazy. It's just that empathy as well. And I mean that applies for everything in life, being able to, and I think that is definitely one because I know people are saying, oh, be worried about, you know, putting our human emotions onto the horse and reflecting ourselves on them. But I think in this case, it is important to really see where they're potentially coming from. And like you said, ask like, why are they struggling? And is it because of them having a bad response to their struggle from us? And it even just made me think of if I had a bad performance in the arena, I and I in my mind think of who I'm letting down. Like I'm letting down my supporters, I'm letting down my my family who helps me and stuff because I'm not performing and all these things. And it's such a bad reaction to that thing where it's like if we're all able to just lower ourselves into where we like that person is or that horse, and we're there with them, then that isn't going to become a thing. Like that issue will not no longer be an issue. That's so crazy.
SPEAKER_02It just it actually dissolves, it dissolves into thin air. That's because you you've taken, and that's the beautiful thing about energy and frequency, because you we we don't realize how powerful we can be energetically by what we uh uh what we energize, what we think about, what we emotionalize, and it creates vibration. And that's kind of getting into another conversation, but it's like you can you can just let something disappear, it's not even a thing anymore. And you know how that is with certain people. It's like some people you know, if you just think about it, it's like if I had that kind of problem, that would be a big problem to them. And other people, it's just like it's not even a thing because that because of how they think. So horses are based on frequency. We're based, we we move frequency through words generally, where horses feel frequency through presence, you know, like it's like when you're you just have to be around and they can feel a thing. They know when you're struggling, they know when you're getting angry or when you're cool. And so, anyways, you know, all that stuff is just so important to be considering in the relationship with horses. I call it universal language, it's like you know, a dog and a cat, you know if they know each other or not, you know, two horses, you know if they want to be together, don't want to be together. You can feel all these things, right? And the same as with the horses. So mastering the inner game to me is like critical to success.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's fun too, because you master it with them, but then you're also mastering with yourself. So your own quality of life is gonna be better, and we're gonna have more intention and more awareness with all these things, and it will carry on with the relationship with the horses and also the relationship with ourselves and other people and other animals and just with the world. Like it's just so cool how it all ties together. So I just want to say I really, really appreciate this conversation, and I hope everyone listening really got some good takeaways for people listening. Where can they find you if they want to connect to more to learn more about you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, Josh Nickel.com, uh J-O-S-H-N-I-C-H-O-L.com. Um, that website. Um, we've got stuff on YouTube. I generally encourage people if you want to check me out that you go to YouTube. We try to put a lot of content on there. Um, we have a series that we put on there that was me presenting at the expo in Saskatchewan. Um, and that's kind of demonstrates my work. It's pretty thorough, it's all free on YouTube. Um we try to be present on social media, you know, you can get content there. And then I have an online learning as well. So people can purchase a membership if they want to dive in. I generally encourage people to go, you know, go go learn as much as you can before you do that. We have a seven-day free uh membership. So like you can go for seven days without any payments, check things out. But yeah, that's that's the three, I think the three primaries, and then you know, we clinic clinic all over, so um, you can check out the website and see where we're gonna be, and then come out and watch. Um, my best is you know, people come learn on YouTube, join the membership, learn there before you come to a clinic because you will save yourself a huge amount by learning the terminologies and the style and the approach. You've already tried it with your horse, and then you come and learn. Then you'll hear the work on the online way different after you've learned from me. But by doing that, that's the best results. Um, yeah, that'd be the primaries. Yeah, and then we've got lots of articles. Awesome podcasts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it just made me think. So, who would be someone that would attend a clinic? Like, what are kind of your ideal people that you want to work with for these clinics?
SPEAKER_02Um, I guess the three pillars, you know, it's like anybody who wants to understand their horse's mind better, you know, you're kind of struggling to feel like you're not online with them, and that that's like totally ranky. It could be from you know, backyard horse owner to someone competing. I I I've helped people in all these varieties. Um, and then under trying to understand the body rather than taking the body. You know, if you if a person's in the mind of trying to take things from the horse, you really won't enjoy my work. But if you're trying to understand how to shape and and understand the body, you know, that's kind of where I I I spend time. And then the empowerment piece. If you want to live, if you want to live in the arena, you probably won't love my work, you know. Like I mean, keep it small. Um, because I'm I'm trying to push those edges and I want to encourage people to grow. So um, yeah, it's like any anybody in there, I'm not very discipline specific because I care about the mind, I care about the body, I care about empowerment. So it generally just blends into everything. Um, because most of the time the problems I see is people get too focused on their fo their thing and they miss the mind, the body, or understanding how to empower. So it's like it's pretty much just what I do. And then we just do that in a whole bunch of different ways.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that. I love that. Just I wanted to ask because I feel like if people were listening, they might not be sure if it fits for them. But like you said, if you have a horse and you're interested in this, and it doesn't matter what discipline I think is so important because, like you said, we get caught up in this little space of I barrel race, I need to learn and read barrel books and this and that. But there's so many other amazing tools and resources and just different knowledge that we can get from other people like you that we can apply that will help us in all fields with our horses. So that's awesome. Um, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time and sharing some of your wisdom with us today.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you're welcome, and thank you for having me. This has been a good conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And you mentioned about oh, this is a conversation for another time. I might have to hold you to that.
SPEAKER_02Sounds good.
SPEAKER_01All right, thank you, Josh.
SPEAKER_02Bye.